i think the analogy is good, but i dont really agree with your interpretation of Scripture. you took various passages out of context and then used them to support your analogy. instead, i believe we must use the Scripture in context to build an analogy. let me give you an example:

“in my inner being i delight in the Law”. this means we should obey the Law no matter what to the letter. a good analogy for this is that we are servants to a master who demands obedience….

fortunately, this isnt how we are to think. this is one verse from paul, out of context of the rest of romans.

instead, i believe we must look at paul the jewish pharisee who studied under gamaliel, head of the hillel pharisees. we must look at the book of galatians and to whom it was written and then look at the letter as an entire document. and then see how these verses fit into this context. with these factors, i dont believe that the language that paul uses (translated from a hebrew thinker to written down in greek to english into a western thinker’s mind) really translates as strongly as we tend to think.

i myself used to hold the same opinion as you and know all the arguments for us being “free” from the Law. but i just dont buy them any longer. i am open to seeing why we shouldnt, but i hear the same old arguments over and over, the ones i used to use.

i am going to write another post on this…look forward to hearing from you again.

peter

This is not my post but because you addressed me I’d like to say, that was a nice analogy. Thanks for the input.

In Jesus,
Sam

I have not attempted to convince you that we should not observe the Sabbath. I hope that is not the way I come across to you. I observe it everyday. If I were to offer up scriptures for the lack of necessity, they would be Matthew 12:1-7, John 5:17, Colossians 2:16, Hebrews 4:3, etc. I obey Jesus’ command about adultery which is the intent of God’s Law but that is because they are good Laws given by one and the same person. Jesus never gave a command with regards to the Sabbath. Moreover, gentiles were not under the Sinaitic covenant and were never required to observe the Law (unless they converted to Judaism). But because Israel made God jealous by gods which were no gods, God made them jealous by a nation that were not a nation; the Church. Now it is the Jew who has to convert. His birth into Judaism isn’t enough. He has to be born again.

I think the New Testament is of one mind on that subject. And the Old Testament as well but we have to get the apostles’ opinion on that before we can understand it that way. It’s not necessary for anyone to be in bondage to observing the Sabbath, but to God a man stands or falls so if what you do is to the Lord, it is not my place to say it is wrong. Likewise, it is not anyone’s place to tell anybody else that they are in bondage to any command that we have been freed from. That is the position that I am trying to ask you about; where do you find that that is not the case and that my wires are crossed? I hope that I have maintained that position, because I am no one’s judge and I’m aware of it.

I would like to say though, the covenant that was made with Israel began like this, “Now then, if you will indeed OBEY My voice and keep My COVENANT, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine:” (Exodus 19:5)

The law was given as part of the covenant and is one and the same. If we have disconnected I’d like to hear what you know that separates the Law from the covenant. I am aware that the definition of “law” and “covenant” are different, but I don’t think that is what you mean. So I’ll leave it at that until there is some clarification, because I don’t think you clarified or showed me how you separate them. I would like to know though.

Sorry it took so long to respond, I was busy. My Father is always at His work, and I too am working. I hope this finds you doing well.

In Jesus,
Sam

This is such an important topic yet I see people confused about this all the time. We have a new law today.. its called the Law of Faith…
The other was nailed to the Cross in Colosians. Cast out the Bond Woman (law) …

Gal 4:29: …But what does the scripture say? Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.

Gal 3:23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25. Now that faith is come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Here is an analogy, the law is like gravity… you fall down you get hurt it is constant. But then say a new law was discovered!!
The law of aerodynamics …. and then you learn how to make wings and fly… As you function in that new law… you cant even tell the other law existed..(gravity).

And that is how we are to function…Walk in the spirit …in a double union with Christ.

The First law was of the Flesh and the second of the Spirit…They dont mix..period. And if you do try to mix them…you get another gospel.

This is so important to get right…because the rest of the bible has to be understood in that light.

Seek ye first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added unto you ….

Faith is not some great thing to have someday.. we are to walk by faith daily…thats the new covenant.

Christ in you !!!! That’s the hope of Glory!!! Understand how he lives in you and through you…

Cheers,
Brian

the covenant is a promise God made with His people. there is a new covenant, no question. but if you read about the new covenant in jeremiah, it says, He will put His Law (Torah) on our hearts.

the Law (Torah – which actually means more “teaching” than “law”) was God’s way of guiding His people in His path. and that Torah still exists, but it is now to be carved on our hearts.

so my question isnt whether the Torah still exists, but what is applicable to us today. we still obey His commands about adultery, why not Sabbath?

i think we should be asking ourselves if there is a good reason not to honor Sabbath. if there is, then ok. but if not, then His Torah still exists. also if you look at Sabbath, it is something that goes back to creation, and isnt just something from the covenant at Sinai. God created the earth in six days and rested on the 7th.

maybe the distinction between covenant and law helps clarify our discussion. i look fwd to hearing back from you.

peter

As far as your quote from 1 John; if you read all the times that he speaks of keeping the commandments of God in his epistle, you’ll notice something incredibly familiar. If you turn to the familiar verses that seem to be what John is quoting from you’ll see that the commandments are Christ’s commandments and not the old testament commandments that he is referring to. See:

1 John 3:23 “This is His commandment that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
24 “The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.”

If you except at face value your interpretation of what is being said here you’d be in trouble. But I’m pretty sure that he is only saying what he quotes Jesus as saying in John.

John 14: 21 “He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”

And,

John 14: 23 “Jesus answered and said to him, ‘If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.”

Especially that last verse which tells us that the commandments in question are of the Father. This is not the first time Jesus says that he only speaks the word of God, or commandments of God (being that they are interchangeable here).

One more,

John 15:10 “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.”

This is a strong parallel with the statement that he makes in 1 John 3 (quoted above). God’s commandments are Jesus’ commandments. They are one and the same.

Hebrews 7:12 “For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.”

Hebrews 7:18 “For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness
19 “(for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.”

You seem to mistake what I am saying so I’ll try and say it better. Jesus is the mediator of a new covenant, making the old one obsolete. This doesn’t say that it was bad. It was glorious but weak. Christ’s Law is surpassing in glory which is the Law of the new covenant. It has some of the same commandments that are to be followed which are based spiritually on the old covenant Laws. This is why my logic may seem skewed. You don’t have to follow the old covenant Laws; you do have to follow Jesus’ Laws. Jesus fulfilled the old covenant Laws but behavioral and devotional Laws in Christ are exactly like that of the Old Covenant. So it may seem as though I am saying “yes, yes” and “no, no” but this should clear that up.

So anyway, I look forward to your response. I do observe the Sabbath. For a year now I have understood that to mean that the days we are living in are the days of rest according to Hebrews and I realized that I had been keeping the Sabbath the whole time by keeping everyday Holy. That’s not to sound pious, but to acknowledge God’s grace to a lowly sinner such as I. I’ve turned over a lot so that I could be free from this body of death and Father has raised me up. Sometimes I still don’t know why I should be so blessed but then I remember it is for his Glory and I’m ready to go to work again.

Again, I hope none of this is abrasive. I lack tact with some people apparently, so I’m hoping to maintain a conversation in Love. It is very interesting to recall these scriptures when I didn’t realize that there were people with these questions.

God Bless You,
Sam

no troubles with your comments. i appreciate your candor. i will say, however, that i find it hard to address all your pts at once, because it breaks down the dialogue and becomes more of a monologue.

with that said, i think the most important thing is to address where we are commanded to obey the commands. and at the same time i think it ties in your thoughts about the two greatest commandments.

in 1 john 5, john writes, “by this we know that we love the children of God (ie addressing love your neighbor), when we love God (so loving our neighbor means we are loving to God, the other great commandment) and obey His commandments(Hebrew mitzvot – ie Torah’s commandments). For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.”

we have to remember that john is jewish, he was raised jewish and continued to be jewish. when he was talking about “commandments” he is referring to “mitzvot”, ie the commandments in the Torah.

regardless of whether there is quibbling about the specific commandments that john is referring to, he is at minimum speaking of the two commandments about love. yet, according to your logic, Messiah fulfilled these. so we shouldnt have to.

you are darn right we dont HAVE to obey these commands, but we arent living in obedience to Messiah if we arent.

anyway, the commandments are not burdensome. and certainly Sabbath is not. it is a great pleasure i hope you find enjoyment in. since i and my wife have found great joy in Sabbath.

may His face shine upon you
peter

I now realize that you were in Acts. I thought you were referring to Philippians 3:5,6 where he considers his being a Pharisee as loss for Christ. In fact it seems that he counted it as loss to be a Pharisee and counted it as rubbish, as though it was necessary to count it as rubbish in order to gain Christ; see Phil. 3:8 (sorry I run sentences on to long sometimes). It seems to me that he realized he’d never get a fair trial from the Jews so he had to divide them in that scene. It basically says this in the passage. And I still don’t see how being a Pharisee means he actually keeps the Law, but that he is educated in the Law. Anyway, I don’t think that it is that big of an issue, but I am interested in your take on the fact that he thought it was rubbish that he was a Pharisee. He did say in 1 Cor. 9:20 “To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;” As a side note, he says here that he is not under the Law, but anyway, calling himself a Pharisee would be in line with this statement.

I was wondering what those passages are that require obedience to the Law. I have not run across them. At least, I have not run across passages that require anyone who is not going to be judged by the Law to be obedient to the Law (remember those who are to be judged by the Law was those who took upon themselves the name of the God in vein by disobeying him. The Law never required that those who kept it to be judged by it). Jesus was speaking to crowds who were under the Law. Remember he said, “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.” The part that says, “…until all is accomplished” is usually left off the end when quoted but it is the operative of the sentence. You see, Jesus had accomplished all that the Law required. You said he did not fulfill murder, adultery, or covetousness but it doesn’t say in the Law that we are to do these things but that we are not to do these things. That he did do, thus fulfilling them for us. If you look at the parallel to this statement, it kinda shapes it; “but it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.” (Luke 16:17) “To fail…” this again is the operative. It did not fail, but became obsolete. The Law was glorious but it was fading because of something surpassing in glory. I don’t mean to be redundant. I am trying to be thorough.

My understanding of the Kingdom of Heaven and of God is that they are first, one in the same but that they were what Jesus ushered in at his first coming and that it has been ongoing for the past two thousand years and will never end. So when he says that they will be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven, (to me) he is saying when the Kingdom is inaugurated at my succession to the throne, then those who were faithful to the previous covenant with God will be called great, but the unfaithful will be called least. The wording of being “called” doesn’t indicate that they will be in the Kingdom of God. What would you do with this verse, “Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.”? I would say that John the Baptist, according to your understanding of Matthew 5:19, did not keep the Law very well.

I agree with the fact that it was always by Grace. Someone had said that Paul had Timothy circumcised and I was saying that the reason was probably not for salvation sake, assuming that the topic was that some laws were still required to be followed by the Jews. That is all I was saying.

I would say that the Sabbath commandment is not followed because it is fulfilled in Christ and that anyone who has believed in Christ has entered that rest. (Hebrews 4:3) Paul certainly agrees that it is not required in Colossians 2: 16 and following. Read the incredible logic of the whole Sabbath days rest syllogism in Hebrews 3 and 4. If you already have, what do you think?

Quote: “so my question is not whether we are to obey God’s commands, but which ones still apply today??”

Love the Lord your God and so on and Love your neighbor. ALL the Law and Prophets hang on these two. By doing these you fulfill the Law. You can basically forget the rest according to Jesus and Paul Matthew 22:40, Romans 13:10. I don’t think any other Law is needed. But I understand that that is just me.

Please accept this as my interests and that I am only presenting them for discussion and not as an arrogant fool running on and on about what he knows. I am treated like that all the time and I don’t mind keeping it to myself, but I do like discussing it with others and I mean no wrong to anyone. If it gets old please say so. Thank you for your responses.

In Christ,
Sam

thanks for your thoughts, here are a few things to think about…

when paul is on trial, he says “i am a pharisee” (acts 23). in context it is clear he is saying that he is, not was. especially if you read a few passages earlier where he contrasts that with “i was a persecutor of the Way”. interestingly, paul also doesnt say persecutor of “christianity”, but of the Way which is a sect (a sect of what? Judaism).

in short, there are many passages that require obedience to Torah. but i think the most obvious ones for the NT come in matthew. Yeshua (Jesus) gives the sermon on the mount, in which He says, “do not think i have come to abolish the Law (Torah) or the Prophets (Nevehim). i have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. therefore, whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments (ie the mitzvot – commandments in the OT) and teaches others to do so as well will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

you are right, Yeshua doesnt say that we must obey the mitzvot in order to save ourselves. this would be legalism. but interestingly, Jews never thought they were saving themselves. it was always God’s grace. however, God still gives us commands which we are to obey. so Yeshua says, we are to obey the commandments or we will be least in the Kingdom.

and then Yeshua goes on to comment on the Torah and many of the most famous commandments. instead of negating the need for these, He increases the standards. He says that the obedience is not just an issue of the outward appearance, but that of the heart state. this too is nothing new as Samuel says, “man judges the outward appearance, but God judges the heart”.

sure, i concede (in fact, i am unsure about what is still required and what has passed away – eg Temple ceremony laws, etc) there are some commandments that seem to no longer apply. many of these are apparent by reason of being fulfilled in Messiah. however, Yeshua didnt “fulfill” murder, or adultery, or covetousness. these are still necessary commandments. we all agree that the ten commandments are guiding principles in our lives (except most christians reject Sabbath, the 4th commandment).

so my question is not whether we are to obey God’s commands, but which ones still apply today??

peter