i read an interesting post from Spanish Inquisitor here. read it for yourself, because i dont want to be unfair to his position. but here is how i would summarize the two main points that he proposes:
1. people don’t kill because of a lack of belief in something. If they kill at all, they do it because of a positive belief in something.
let me address them separately. in response to the first point, i want to say, i agree. in fact, i think this is very similar to the point CS Lewis makes in Mere Christianity. you see, Lewis argues that any person does not do evil for the sake of being evil, but because it achieves some good for themselves. even a person who commits evil purely for evil, will do so because they derive some sort of sick pleasure out of it. so they are actually doing it for pleasure, which is a good thing. relating this to Inquisitor’s point about Atheism, i think people will not kill another person because they don’t believe something, because even in claiming they believe nothing, they have become a nihilist.
so take, for example, the protagonist in Crime and Punishment. he believes there is no such thing as morality (that is for those who can transcend societal boundaries), which essentially is the belief there is no inherent order to our world other than, as Nietzche put it, “The will to power”. however, this lack of belief is, in fact, a belief. it is a nihilistic belief about the world. Spanish Inqisitor concludes that it is never for no reason that a person kills, i concur.
interestingly, i think it is exactly the will to power that spurred Hitler and Mao Zedong and Stalin and Pol Pot, etc, to action. it is this desire, this thirst, which can never be quenched without the blood of innocents spilling on the streets. it was this same lust for blood that led the Spanish Inqisition and many other massacres that “Christians” have promoted. here is where i think we find ourselves, there are two ways, the way of death and the way of life…and as it has been said, “the difference between the two is vast.” but the way of life is not always those who claim to be disciples of the Way, Truth and Life. and inversely, the way of death is not always those who reject Him.
the way of life is only found through Messiah and not through those who claim to be His followers.
2. No one died because they refused to embrace atheism. Many died because they were deemed enemies of the state.
this statement also points to the real struggle not being of “Atheism”, but of power. and i think, again, Inquisitor makes his case well. he is justified in saying that people died because they were “enemies of the state”. but i think he lacks a critical insight into the way of the world. i don’t doubt at all that Stalin had less interest in destroying those who didn’t embrace atheism than he did for those who rejected his power. the problem here with Inquisitor’s logic is that Stalin’s power was founded upon the projection of Atheism. Mao Zedong was the same. now, in light of years and other rulers, these two nations have allowed freedom to be or not to be religious. but under Mao and Stalin, there was no choice.
i read a great book called Red Azaleas in college. it was written by a Chinese woman who had been through the Cultural Revolution. it is a fact that Mao tried to destroy any and all religion, except for Atheism. this was not some broad Atheism, per se, however. it was a Mao-centered atheism. he placed himself on billboards and books, pins and ribbons. there was nothing in the country that didnt have Mao. this is similar to what Saddam Hussein did as well. there was a running joke in Baghdad during Saddam’s reign about the thousand faces of Saddam.
however, this is Atheism, nonetheless. it falls within the scope of its broad doctrines (as Inquisitor points out, Atheism is quite broad in its range of beliefs). the reason i believe that many of these ruthless dictators’ real campaign was for Atheism, was not for Atheism’s own sake. it was a means to an end. as Machiavelli recommends to the Prince that he use religion to his own ends to gain and keep power, so do these men use Atheism. yet, it is Atheism. for instance, they believed they were capable of replacing God (or gods or whatever the various religions of these countries taught) with themselves. essentially, it could be called Humanism. however, it certainly is not a religion in the strict definition of the word. religion comes from Latin’s religare, which implies a binding belief. these men tried their best to destroy any such binding beliefs. they knew, wisely, that such “religious” beliefs could cause them to lose power. some “religious” person might contend that the ruler was acting contrary to the dictates of that specific religion. and, as a consequence, that ruler would lose power.
so in seeking complete power, they not only sought Atheism, but were its strictest promoters. they may not have been philosophically “Atheist”, but they used Atheism as the means by which they were to obtain and maintain absolute power. this was their will to power.
Filed under: Philosophy, Politics, Religion | Tagged: atheism, history

Your critique seems a little confused off the bat when you equate being an atheist with nihilism. This is a mistake borne out of the fact that “atheism” describes what people are not (they are not god believers). But that doesn’t imply that they don’t have all sorts of values and convictions and opinions. Atheists don’t have any PARTICULAR things in common: they are only defined as a group by what they are not, not by what they individually are.
This can be confusing, I understand, but it ultimately makes arguments about there being a particular “doctrine” of atheism that makes an atheist like Mao like any other random atheist into nonsense. There is no common doctrine. Mao the atheist is like other atheists only in the same sense that Barry Bonds the non-professional hockey player is like me, the non-professional hockey player. Which is to say that we don’t necessarily share much of anything in common at all, other than what we are not. Trying to generalize from anything Bonds does to me is thus, well, silly.
I think Sam Harris also makes a good point when he says that what most outspoken atheists like himself are arguing for is simply that people be more reasonable. None of the dictators and their totalitarian regimes were the result of anyone becoming more reasonable: they were almost all examples of people becoming LESS so. Unwavering faith is the problem, not humble empiricism and political liberalism (coupled with free inquiry).
bad
i think you misunderstood my point. i didnt say that nihilism was the same as atheism, rather that atheism has nihilism as its moral underpinnings (although some deny this, i dont believe its possible to be a true atheist and believe there is such a thing as universal morality).
the main point wasnt this, however. i can agree that there are many people who wouldnt agree that there is a nihilistic aspect to all atheism. so for sake of argument, i can even let that one go. BUT i think you missed the main point. the main point was that the various dictators who were tyrannical and murderous (like Chairman Mao and Stalin, etc) did claim atheism, not necessarily because they believe in atheism, but because they wanted power. this IS very much the concepts Nietschze spoke about when he theorized “the will to power”. this was the driving force for them, i believe. and yet, this led them to accept atheism in order to destroy religious belief in order to secure their own power.
ultimately the main point is power. i thought i made that clear from the title. sorry i didnt do as good a job as i could have. make sense?
peter
“rather that atheism has nihilism as its moral underpinnings”
I guess I’m one of those people who do not agree. Believing that something is wrong requires no “underpinnings”: it’s a judgment and a question of values.
Again, atheists are just people. They are people who do not happen to believe the particular ideological things that, for instance, you believe. But nothing about your view is specially privileged when it comes to morality. As Plato pointed out, no theism is capable even in theory of providing any more justification for moral principles than the principles themselves. We’re all in the same philosophical boat when it comes to understanding the question of morality and defining universal moral rights and wrongs. The existence of god doesn’t solve any of those problems: theists tend to believe it does, but only because they neglect to notice the key philosophical steps they must take to get to talking about that God’s wishes being morally good and right, or even morally informative at all.
“this IS very much the concepts Nietschze spoke about when he theorized “the will to power”.”
I think this is a misread of Nietschze. Nietschze’s would have characterized people like Mao and Stalin as either “might makes right” people or people that derive their values from ideology. His model of someone escaping that, his “will to power” was pretty much of an artistic hermit, for whom social powers no longer constrained him, nor did the desire to control society.
The driving force for Mao and Stalin was little different than the driving force between any dictator, Christian, Muslim, or atheist. They held to absolutist ideologies that they felt justified nearly anything.
ok, for argument sake, i will suppose that i misread Nietschze (although i am not sure that is the case). the point i think you miss, is that i completely agree that these dictators were no different than any “religious” dictator.
that was my point to begin with. it is only a lust of power. it is nothing more.
however, where we may or may not part ways in that the lust for power in say Stalin’s case led to a strict adherence to a world without “religion”. he knew how powerful “religion” could be. he knew that rulers have risen and fallen as a result of “religious” beliefs. thus, he desired to eradicate God (or really the idea of God). in so doing, he believed he would gain power.
so while his approach to atheism may not have been the one that a philosopher may choose, he was an atheist nonetheless. he desired power, and to do so destroy belief in God or religion.
you made the point that atheism is a very amalgamous theory, i agree. that is why Stalin and Mao and others can be considered “atheists” and why it was their brand of “atheism” that led to slaughter of the innocents.
peter
“No one died because they refused to embrace atheism. Many died because they were deemed enemies of the state.”
Many died because refusing to accept atheism (or more accurately the public acceptance of something other than atheism) often gets one labeled as an enemy of the state. Those worshiping in house churches in China are persecuted because their acceptance of a religion equates to being an enemy of the state. There are similar things going on in China regarding Buddhists.
The communist (atheist) government of China fears religion and labels committed members of about any sect as enemies of the state. Lately they have taken the tact of trying to “sanction” certain churches- but of course this means the government can control the church’s doctrine and teachings. It also allows them to monitor believers in numerous faiths to ensure they aren’t a threat to the government.
This shouldn’t be surprising since communists have always been wary of religion of almost any kind since Marx.
“you made the point that atheism is a very amalgamous theory, i agree.”
No, I didn’t make that point. Atheism isn’t a theory, it’s merely a category, and one that is privative: that is, it definitionaly excludes a specific thing but doesn’t directly include anything.
“so while his approach to atheism may not have been the one that a philosopher may choose, he was an atheist nonetheless. ”
Yes, but the implication drawn from that is groundless. Mao was also not a duck. Michael Jordan is also not a duck. Agreeing to that doesn’t tell us anything about any actual substantive similarities between the two men, or even what “not being a duck” entails.
I agree with your theory about why these leaders attacked religious institutions and persecuted religious belief: they wanted total control for their ideologies, and those were sources and claims of authority that competed with theirs. But again, its those ideologies that, functionally, drove them to be anti-religion, not simply the fact that they weren’t religious.
bad, you said, “its those ideologies that, functionally, drove them to be anti-religion, not simply the fact that they weren’t religious.”
of course, that is what i have been saying all along. there purpose was power, the means was atheism. that is why i talked about Machiavelli. if you look back at the post, i said he told the Prince to whom he wrote to use religion to keep power. in the same way, Mao and others used atheism to keep power. so is he “atheist”??
well one could see they werent, but its not entirely fair to say they had nothing to do with atheism.
totaltrans,
i think you hold the exact opposite viewpoint as “bad”. he believes there is no connection between these dictators and atheism. you think there is every connection. i dont think either, exactly. i think that they used atheism for their own purposes because they thought it would be the most effective way. so it wasnt their personal “atheism” that drove them, but power. on the other hand, the means they used was certainly atheistic and therefore they cant be separated from it either.
peter
Atheistic ideologies killed 130,000,000 people in the last 100 years. This comes from research from John Hopkins University. Funny how atheists like Richard Dawkins like to point the finger at all religions (as if they are all the same!!! Yeah right!!!) when his ideologies have led to these incredible numbers of deaths. I think geocide is teh word 4 it. Look it up on wikipedia.
rob
i agree that atheistic ideologies have been the source for much genocide. but to be fair, so has “Christianity” under the Pope among others.
peter
Ok first, please provide a link to this research done at JHU that concludes “Atheistic ideologies killed 130,000,000 people in the last 100 years.”
PB and J, I was with you until you injected this “way of death and the way of life”. This comes out of left field and I have no idea what it means or why it’s injected into your piece other than a means to end with “the way of life is only found through Messiah”. Please define what you mean by both of these “ways”.
You’re real close on your 2nd point but you still manage to miss the mark. I don’t see how you can admit that Stalin and Mao used atheism to advance their power but then can also say that “this is Atheism, nonetheless.” Take the reference you made of Machiavelli’s advice to the Prince of using religion for maintaining power. There’s no implication that the Prince buy into the religion. In fact, he could very well be an atheist (and in fact would be better off so as to objectively manipulate it, imo). By your logic, any act he commanded, encouraged or did in the name of christianity would BE christianity if all that Stalin or Mao did under the cloak of atheism “is Atheism”. This is a huge mistake. You’re right that either is a tool or means to an end which is power, but it’s a mistake to say this use of the tool is definitive of the tool.
Lastly, I have to disagree with your assertion that “atheism has nihilism as its moral underpinnings”. Now if you’re going to define nihilism solely as “no inherent order to our world” than ok, but in that case ALL morality has nihilism at it’s base. Religion solves the problem with a divine imposition of order. Secular solutions instead have to arrive at an order agreed upon by society. I would instead define nihilism as claiming the world and life have no value and I don’t see that as a basis for most atheist’s views. Don’t confuse no inherent value with no value. Atheists assign value in things rather than believing everything was created, and created with an inherent value. It was in what Nietzsche saw as the death throws of religion that he made his assertions of “The Revaluation of all Values” and the idea for humanity to aspire to the goal of the overman which is perpetual personal growth and improvement as well as growth and improvement of humanity. He feared that the removal of the crutch of religion as our basis for morality and meaning would create a vacuum which would lead to nihilism and his life’s work was to show that would be a mistake by both exposing religion as a shaky, unsuitable crutch to begin with and to show we could manage much better without it.
phillychief
thanks for your lucid and spurring comments. i think you are right in most of your critique of my position. i can concede that Mao and Stalin, etc, may have used Atheism without being adherent to it.
however, what i meant was that, just as “Christianity” was the official religion of the Holy Roman Empire, so Atheism was the official religion under Mao or Stalin. so in practicality, the dictators may not have been Atheists, but the people were forced to be.
as to the “way of death”/”way of life”…sorry, i didnt explain the connection as well as i should have. if you look at my posts under the category “didache” you will get a better understanding of what i was talking about. basically, it is a Jewish concept that there are only two paths in life, that of death or life. so someone either promotes life, like many Atheists and many religious people, or that person promotes death, like both Atheist and religious person alike. my point was that the way of death has nothing to do with being “religious” or being “Atheist”, rather how one chooses to live.
in regard to the moral underpinnings of Atheism being Nihilism, i will write another post in regard to that, because it’s a long topic.
thanks again for the comments.
peter
Atheism isn’t a religion but as a tool, yes, it was used similarly as christianity in the Holy Roman Empire. I think in each case though, the ultimate goal might have been making the masses subscribe to the state idea but the realistic goal was to eliminate outside influences on the hearts and minds of the masses. The HRE established a state religion to consolidate thought and repeal contrary thought via foreign religions that might preach anything that opposes the state. Communists removed the earlier state’s religion as well as all others for the same fear, that they would preach anything that opposes the state.
I was not familiar with the didache so thanks for that. Naturally as an atheist I would have to disagree with the idea that the good of “the way of life” is only possible through worshipping a deity.
Your post, Spanish Inquisitor’s and a few others have inspired me to write something of some length on the issue of valuing ideas on the deeds done in their name.
“i can concede that Mao and Stalin, etc, may have used Atheism without being adherent to it.”
I’m still trying to argue though, that talking about someone being an adherent to “atheism” isn’t a useful way of thinking about it. There’s nothing to be an adherent TO. It’s like saying that someone is an adherent to not believing in astrology. Note that is a category that includes people who haven’t even HEARD of astrology: how can anyone in that situation be described as an adherent of anything?
bad
that was exactly my point as well. i think there is no way to qualify what an “atheist” is. so someone who tried to actively destroy religion can easily be considered an atheist (as in Greek from one who is a=against theos=god(s)).
peter
First of all, you have your greek roots wrong: the “a” is more commonly understood as “without” as in “amoral” (without morals, as opposed to immoral) or “achromatic” (without color).
Second of all, I still don’t think you are getting what I’m saying. It’s very easy to qualify what an atheist is: it’s someone without god belief, simple as that. The issue is that it makes no sense to speak of atheism as if it were a doctrine or that one is an adherent to it, because its not an ideology in and of itself, but rather the lack of a particular one (theism).
“i think you hold the exact opposite viewpoint as “bad”. he believes there is no connection between these dictators and atheism. you think there is every connection.”
No, I think the issue is mixed in many ways. Many of these folks (Stalin, Mao) were deeply paranoid individuals who feared religion for a whole bunch of reasons. They could have been Muslims, Buddhists, or even Christians and acted the same way. But since they are atheists their paranoia wasn’t limited to other sects, but spread across all religions.
But then again some might argue that their sect was in many ways defined by atheism. But Stalin is the exception to almost any rule since his paranoia was monumental.
bad
first of all, check your source for the Greek root. its a biology page. not that Greek isnt relevant, because it is. Greek is the primary language regarding scientific terms in English. however, scientists dont care so much about the technicalities or implications of the etymological character of the root. if you check out other sources, you will find that a- means without, against, not, etc. so it can mean against. and it often does.
aside from that, i am sorry you feel the need to disagree. i personally think we agree entirely.
peter
phillychief
sorry, just noticed your comment. thanks for the good discussion. let me know when you post, because i would love to read your thoughts.
peter
totaltrans
thanks for the comment. i agree, i think the reason that they did what they did was out of paranoia, because they wanted to maintain the position of power.
peter
Ok, I decided to post what I have so far on the valuation of an idea. I’d welcome comments.
Thanks